|IFBB Warns Milos Sarcev? Page 4
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74. One point to consider - now that the IFBB warned Mustafa publically that he will be kicked out and suspended if he gets sick again, and others know that, imagine how much more dangerous it is going to be in a contest now.
These athletes are worried now that if they get sick, they are out, so now they are not going to tell anyone the extent of what is going on if they get sick - until it is too late.
Instead of saying something, they are going to wait until the last minute, because according to the IFBB, if they speak up and say they are sick, they will be suspended. And if someone dies.
What will be IFBB say when someone really gets hurt and dies because they were afraid to speak up for fear of suspension. Is this really the right way to go?
Any comments on this situation?
Also, I fail to understand why the IFBB and its committee have not addressed these issues, especially in light of 3-4 amatuer and pro competitors dying in the last month or two. Why isn't there a resolution saying that the IFBB will begin testing for these type of diurectics - etc.
Remember, at the Arnold Classic, Arnold Schwarzenegger called on bodybuilding to get rid of steroids, issuing the challenge on-stage at the bodybuilding competition that bears his name. In his first public remarks on the steroid issue directly to bodybuilders, Schwarzenegger said the sport must become drug free. "We have to do even more in order to get rid of drugs from our sport once and for all, we have to do everything from A to Z" he told some 4,000 people watching the men's finals at the annual Arnold Classic. "We have to do everything we can to send a message that we are dealing with a sport called bodybuilding, not body destroying."
"I think we should call another summit, bring everyone together in our federation, there's a lot of smart people in there. Let's talk again about it and really think what else could we do," he said
Well, where is the summit? Where are the results of this?
Because if there is nothing done by the end of the year, the reports who were at the Arnold Classic are going to have a field day on Arnold and the IFBB.
So much so that Arnold is going to be called a liar for having done nothing in a year, after calling for a summit with the IFBB, and those comments can ruin his political career.
Will Arnold risk this for bodybuilding? For watching the IFBB do nothing about steroids? And worse - after a comment threatening suspension to a bodybuilder if he gets sick - what happens when one dies because they are afraid to tell someone they don't feel right at a contest?
75. how mucha aldactone did he take in the first place?i mean many of us do it and nothing ever happends...
76. Milos Sarcev Shawn - SIMPLE solution THAT WOULD WORK - is CHANGE THE CRITERIA and bring back 1977-78-79 Frank Zane physique like a perfect model...or should we go back to Steeve Reeves?
I would like to find a single person (women or man) that would look at their pictures and say something derogatory... (like you hear today when you show bodybuilding magazines to your friends and family). IFBB has sent the notice to WOMEN - about "20% reduction"...so why don't we do the same for man?
Bodybuilding is EXTREME sport - and if you really analyze EVERYTHING about the sport, it is EXTREME. Extremely dehydrated competitors, with extreme muscularity (and we all know how we got there - eating broccoli of course), extremely exhausted due to extreme dieting that caused extremely low (and dangerous) body fat levels... jacked up on extremely potent thermogenic supplements to be able to train with extreme intensity needed for extreme look to please extremely correct judges...
That is solution in my book - NOTHING else would ever solve it.
Diuretic testing (or any other kind of testing) is just that - test that can be beat. I had 10 different diuretics that were not on the list since 1997 - I personally told Wayne - test me every time and you'll add another one on the list (he actually did that - and that's why list expended it). IF we want to protect athletes as you say FROM THEMSELVES - this is the only way. If they know what the judges are looking for is still the same - they will do the same things.
SHAWN:"We need to do the same and Testing is the only way to do so. If there was testing in place and the federation was aware of ALL the Duiretics to test for, Mustafa may have never wound up in the hospital in the first place let alone a second time."
MILOS: Mustafa has competed in numerous shows in his career AND DID NOT GET IN TROUBLE. What happened in Las Vegas could happen to everyone and consequently what happen 6 days later in Amsterdam was all connected to his problem from week before.
Did Mustafa have any problem in New York? Read my article and see what went wrong and you'll understand that MAYBE even you did almost the same things - but fortunately did not have any consequences.
SHAWN:"Now I see your point about nothing in the past being done and some of us getting around the Testing but now in light of Athletes dropping like Flies, I propose to bring the testing back and inform the federation of the potential dangers of the drugs we used and others use that can hurt or kill our athletes of tomorrow
MILOS: Athletes dropping like a flies? Which athletes are you talking about? Since formation of the IFBB (to repeat AS EXTREME SPORT - focus on EXTREME) how many casualties did we really have? How about the other sports (or any other field of life)?
SHAWN:"The saddest part of my Olympia Weekend was spending it in a hospital to end the weekend, which in my opinion as a 13 Time Olympian, could have been avoided. When they call me, I will tell them what I know about the dangerous drugs I am aware of in hopes of testing for them to save a life or two, will you?
MILOS: " I would ALWAYS be on athletes side and certainly if I can save even a headache or two - I would. But TESTING WAS IMPLEMENTED AND ONLY MADE THINGS WORSE! I am not against testing - but IF THE JUDGING CRITERIA IS THE SAME - so would result and all the dangers for the athletes. Simply: CHANGE THE RULES, choose bodybuilders that would be appealing for the audience and beautiful (and healthy) to look at! How is that for a solution?
77. (Quoting 76) But will this ever happen?
78. I think it's saying something when someone like Milos is proposing we take the physiques back to where they were 25 plus years ago. When someone who has been in the trenches is saying in a public forum that things are going too far then people need to start listening. I also agree with Milos that all the testing in the world won't make a significant differance, look at the Olympics peopel are always looking for ways to gain an edge, beat test etc. only when the judging criteria is changed will it be unnessecary for people to go to these extremes. Initially the fans will be outraged but by awarding physiques which are pleasant to look at the future of BB will be much brighter. Just think, only 24 years ago in the 1981 Olympia Padilla was marked down for appearing too ripped?!?!?! This evergrowing trend towards more extreme physiques and practices needs to be halted (and if possible reversed).
79. (Quoting 76) They already have this at the Team Universe and MuscleMania.
80. Shawn Ray Milos I am coming to the gym today, so I'll see you then.
However, if you truly want to make your points valid and make a difference, put your thoughts in wirting to the Federation and address Mr. Jim Manion and see where it leads.
You never know but here on this forum we aren't going to win any contests.
Talking about what is wrong in our sport is one thing but doing something about it is another.
Handle your business son. Wink
81. (Quoting 80) AS usual , "The Mouth " is straight on the money .... Smiley He"s absolutely right Milos , taking action might help , just talking about it here, ....highly unlikely.. Smiley
82. Milos Sarcev Like Wayne would say: put it in writting!?
Everyone reads (or hears about) what is written here (or other forums as well).
My letter to Manion would change nothing as well - we all know the truth and nobody is doing thing about it.
If you need to win the race - you better sprint, if you want to win the bodybuilding show sign-off your health as to be looking like a winner (by today's standards) you ABSOLUTELY have to jeopardize your health!
So, do I need to tell IFBB officials that standard they are putting in front of us - is border line dangerous?
They know that.
But, as Wayne used to say: people LOVE TO SEE FREAKS!
So freakier you are - the better!
By awarding more symmetrical bodybuilders (like in New York) they made a first step...changing criteria further (accepting healthy looking and appealing physiques) - for a sake of healthy sport would be a GREAT CHOICE!
83. (Quoting 82) You took the words right out of my mouth.
84. At the rate they're going today, how many of today's "chemical freaks" will still be around and able-bodied when they're as old as Arnold, Louie and the other guys of that era are now?
(which ain't that old, is my point)
85. (Quoting 63) Diuril ?
Milos is the man !
86. (Quoting 85) I do believe that Milo's is referring to Demadex.
87. (Quoting 86) Ahh, of course. Torsemide.
88. There seems to be a lot of confusion about this business of judging bodybuilding and applying criteria. The basic criteria hasn't changed much over the years but the IFBB adopted a particular method that was designed to mimic the way judging occurred in other sports and thus rounds were scored and a posedown was added. The hope was that the Olmypic movement would accept bodybuilding as a sport. Ben Weider reported many times that inclusion was close. Today it appears our sport is unlikely to be accepted in the foreseeable future. The Mr and Ms Olympia contests have no chance whatever of being included because of the prevalence of drug use and obvious side effects on many competitors.
If we hope to have a say in our sport then we have to be able to remove people in charge. This requires a democratic organization and not the life president and appointed positions that occurs today. There is little way that change can occur in the IFBB because it has to be endorsed from the top down. The bodybuilders can discuss and argue all they want but nothing will happen unless the IFBB leaders want that to happen. We need a new president in out sport and all the positions must be elected by the organization. The rule should be that anyone can stand for positions in the IFBB. This organization has been a closed shop from day 1 and nothing has changed. If bodybuilders accept this by doing nothing then they get what they deserve.
Once you have a democratically open election of officials it will be an easy matter for the new judges' committee to come up with criteria and this can be voted on and when accepted applied to contests. Why should any individual such as Jim Manion have all the power regarding what should happen and what the rules are? That is just not good enough. What has evolved in this sport is that the system is one in which ass-kissing is the way competitors get along in the sport. Those who protest and go against the organization usually find themselves unable to have much standing in the sport and unable to win the top titles.
The sport has gone out of bodybuilding a long time ago. Thank goodness that nonsense of having an interview as part of the AAU Mr America contest doesn't happen anymore anywhere. The interview was used as a means to make sure certain individuals didn't win the overall title. Blacks and certain muscleheads were kept from winning titles up until about 1970. A lot of those restricting practices by the AAU led to the IFBB being more popular with many of the guys training purely for bodybuilding. The idea was that a man should be judged only on his physique and not personality or sporting ability. That is what is accepted today although many suspect that certain individuals can be placed down in contests if officials do not want them to win. The good old posedown is the main culprit here. We really don't know if certain judges are instructed on "mistakes" made and so on. Everyone knows that most contests are judged so that the first call out is 1st, 2nd, and 3rd. The point is exactly who decides who the first out will be? This is where any "fixing" can occur because the judges are being told these are the top three placegetters.
Milos is arguing that a certain look is what wins contests. That is fine. That is his opinion and one opinion. There are other opinions and the IFBB has to find a way to come up with the best and fairest criteria to guarantee that the best person wins. In my opinion definition is one of the criterion and not the most important. We look for the overall appearance. The main factors to assess overall appearance are size, proportions, symmetry, shape, separation, definition. Points can be deducted for blemishes which can include features on the skin, tattoos, gynocomastia and so on. Since building muscle is what bodybuilding is all about there should be zero tolerance for artificially enhanced muscles be that synthol or objects that make muscles bigger than they are. That is zero tolerance. Men with gynocomastia should not be able to win a bodybuilding contest. Period. Gynocomastia includes having tissue removed.
If you want to get respect for our sport then you have to do random testing during the year for all contestants. Plus severe testing before the finals of major contests. Those failing the tests should be banned for life. End of story. What happened in the past was that the IFBB was afraid they might lose competitors to other organizations. Well, it appears that most champions want to win the Olympia and perhaps Arnold Classic. The other contests might be important but are not the top shows. The IFBB no longer has to fear losing competitors to a rival organization because there is no viable rival organization in bodybuilding.
Milos states that drug testing is not going to solve the drug problem in our sport. Maybe science and human nature will always look for ways to beat the system but at least the IFBB should use the most rigid testing procedures and so on. It shouldn't be difficult to beat the abusers if Milos and others are part of the drug committee of the IFBB! Yes, elect Chad and others and you will solve this problem. Unless, of course those men cannot be trusted. If so, elect some who can be trusted. I am not saying anything about the honesty of those mentioned. What the IFBB needs is the best people in the organization. There are good people out there. We all know that. However what happens is those people do not get invited to participate or judge and the sport suffers accordingly. A good example of that is how Paul Graham in Australia remains head of the IFBB there no matter what he does. It is not possible to remove him from his position because the IFBB keeps Paul no matter what. The bodybuilders of Australia failed several times in the past to remove Paul. Paul merely changed the name of his organization and it was business as usual. That situation is typical of the IFBB and a disgrace. There are no elections for Paul's position.
Judging should be a proper enterprise and only the best selected and retained. We need strong, intelligent, independent judges who vote for who they assess is best. The judging process must be the best possible and the judges have to be responsible. Results of all judges have to be published at the end of each contest. We did this in Sydney in the early 1980s and it stopped all the confusion about judging. The competitors did not have to approach judges to find out where they placed and so on. Everyone had the results and could see for themselves. Copies of the results should be handed to everyone in the audience as well.
In my opinion the IFBB should abandon scoring the rounds. This procedure is responsible for most of the discontent about the placings in contests. If bodybuilding is about overall appearance then that is exactly what must be rewarded. Yes, rounds can be used but only to help select the finalists. Once you have the finalists you use comparisons to select the winners. You do not have a posedown that is scored because accurate comparisons cannot be made. You also have to eliminate procedures that do not have the respect of competitors and the audience. I mean, what is being judged in the posedown? It was clearly a means to allow errant judges to "correct" their placings. You might not like to hear this but that is the only reason the posedown is included in the scoring.
The judging criteria is not up to me or any other individual to make. However, when people like myself do not respect the criteria and procedures then the sport is never going to be respected and we will continue to have all this crap that occupies so many posts on the various online discussion boards. Do we find discussion boards for Olympic sports that are filled with protests and debates after every major contest? I doubt it. Bodybuilding is not respected and it has degenerated into a sideshow and nobody seems able to do anything about it.
89. Excellent post, Vince! You too, TK and Milos!
I tend to agree on most everything you said but no matter who sits in the power-seat and no matter who judges a bodybuilding contest and no matter how honest or dis-honest they may be, the fans in the audiance will always disagree even if they were given the opportunity to make the winner decision themselves.
It's best to accept that fact and forget about it as a "problem".
But I totally agree that new standards will only come into play when the present regeime is put out to pasture.
It appears to me that the "powers" are only saying/doing things to protect their asses if another bodybuilding catastrophe should occur.
"You did this and we told you not to!"
But if you don't "do this" you end up as low man on the totem pole.
And I honestly hate to say this but one day a catastrophe is gonna happen and legal action will be warranted and everyone in power will be searching for ways to cover their butts.
But sometimes that is the only way that corrective actions can be made. It will definitely come from outside!
I honestly don't know how this problem will be solved but maybe those natural organizations out there could be the wave of the future.
The strongest will survive!
Could that be the natural guys and the organizations that they belong to?!
Thanks to all you guys and gals who are showing so much interest in this major problem.
90. (Quoting 82) Yes Milos some may stop going to shows if the guys were less "freaky", less massive, less dry and shredded, etc. However, it would encourage me and I would go to more pro shows, even travel to a few which I never did in the past.
Guys like you Milos and Shawn are bodybuilding PHYSIQUES, that has always inspired me over freaky bodybuilders. Ok, I admit I am an old married fart at 46, but I have been in and around this crazy sport for nearly 3 decades, guys like me are lifetime fans and will support a more sane version of pro bodybuilding 100%. In my opinion I agree with FLEX writer Shawn Perine, "for every fan we might lose by ending the exterme freak show, we would gain 2-3 more in their place for a classic physique show".
All the best for continued health and wealth,
Howard White in Ga
91. Milos SarcevI also agree with Shawn Perine.
Would IFBB have guts and common sense?
92. (Quoting 82) I don't think New York was any great example of progression in judging.
The olympia is where we really see whether they are blowing smoke.
I predict that they are.
93. Good discussion.
Milos, you don't need my amateur accolates....but great job you and Luke W. did getting him together so well for the NY show in that short of time. Awesome. I am Luke's friend John.
Yes, the BBers should not go to such extremes with diuretics.....but if an athlete gets hyperkalemic and you are almost certain....having about 10ius of insulin on hand with 100grams of dextrose will help shift the potassium intracellularly very quickly and protect the heart emergently. Then you when the docs get to the athlete, they need to give Kaexelate 50-100grams, calcium gluconate, and NaCl, then monitor levels. This almost always worked. Rarely people may need emergent dialysis. Again, I am not condoning this...just reciting info (and suggesting having insulin and dextose on hand at these shows can save a possible life). There should definitely be a medical professional on staff at the pro shows! There is even a device that can do fingerstick bloodwork and get a rough idea of electrolytes quickly (not super accurate but can distinguish hyper from hypokalemia).
94. Milos Sarcev You are correct - but let the doctors do their job...
95. Shawn Ray The athletes are grown men, playing Chemical Warefare is not the fault of the judges.
I did what I had to do because I felt it would benefit me, when I saw things were getting crazy and going in a different direction I got out.
I trained for the look I felt pleased me and let the Chips fall where they may. Guys trying to compete and please the judges or appear as they think the judges would like them to appear, should do some soul searching and find out what is really important to them like Family and Life after BBing.
Pursuing a look that may put you 6ft under or bring close to it, should be reason enough not to continue playing with fire and blaming the industry for it.
"Free Will" is definitely at work here, all the medical doctors and Testing cannot save some people from themselves.
I am not speaking only about Mustafa and his misfortunes but the list is Long and there is no need to name names of those who conitnue to play with fire even while displaying the negative effects of their experience with Drug Abuse. Cry
96. i think conditioning wise things should be judged somewhere between the physiques leaness etc that was seen between the mid 70's to mid 80's
I hate the word conditioning btw, as in it has nothing to do with being in good condition but being dehydrated beond what should be acceptable.
I think someone mentioned how so many bb'ers look so good 3 weeks out, that would be right on the money
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